Paper Mario – 2000 Developer Interviews

Kawade: Yeah, we tried polygons, but there was too much overlap with the N64 Zelda games, I guess, so it got rejected. (laughs) We were using Silicon Graphics as a software tool, but ultimately we ended up dusting off those old Super Famicom tools and using those to create the Paper Mario graphics. (laughs)

Since our first priority was to protect the atmosphere and setting of the Mario universe, we decided to only use characters from the mainline Mario games. The side characters from Super Mario RPG therefore do not appear. I think that with Mario, sticking to the “main road” is the best. Plus, it would feel weird to have heavy themes like “betrayal” in the overall cozy, heartwarming atmosphere of the Mario world. (laughs)

Creating the Story

Kawade: As for the story, that was figured out very early in the development. As such a lot of our efforts went into figuring out ways to make all the other, non-story content appealing to players. We could have tried to make Paper Mario’s appeal all about some grand enticing story, but what we really wanted was to make a game that you wouldn’t quickly get bored of playing, something you could enjoy for the long-haul. It’s a fact that most games on the market today are prioritizing their storylines above everything else, but you know, part of it too is that our policy at Nintendo is not to compete in the same arena as everyone else. (laughs)

Designing the Battle System

Sasano: Above all, we didn’t want battles where you’re just mashing the A button to win. That’s where the idea for dividing the enemies up by their vulnerability (to either being jumped on or hammered) came from. By doing so, I think we’ve succeeded in avoiding that phenomenon that often occurs in RPGs, where you become so overpowered by the second half that the battles become a mere annoyance.

Kawade: Yeah, about half of the game’s production time was spent on the battle system. Two things we were careful about were, one, to make sure you were never just sitting there doing nothing for too long, and two, that the difficulty was not so high as to exclude players. In doing so, we successfully created an enjoyable battle system with a “pleasant” kind of tension to it.

Sasano: The N64 has Zelda, of course, but it didn’t have a pure RPG, which was another motivation for this development. And given the special characteristics of the N64 hardware, we knew we’d have to design the game in such a way that younger players (first and second graders) could clear it.

Kawade: Yeah. But the danger there is that, if you make the game super easy, then experienced RPG players won’t find it any fun. Our answer to that problem was the Action Command. Even if you mess up the timing, you won’t lose the battle, so it serves as a nice bonus mechanic for players. For people who are already good at video games, I think the Action Command is one of the mechanics they can really sink their teeth into.

Sasano: We tried to avoid the need for grinding; the difficulty is always set so that if you just try a little harder you can probably succeed. It should be a stress-free experience for children and adults alike.

Dialogue

Kawade: One thing we struggled with was the dialogue. Nowadays people expect voice acting in their games, but playing back voice samples on the N64 is difficult, and we were stumped for awhile. Then the idea came to us of using those various font effects for the text. When an old man speaks, for example, the text sort of shakes, or when someone is surprised it gets really big for a moment. This approach wouldn’t break the atmosphere of the Mario world with real spoken dialogue, and I think the text effects also enhance that cozy, heartwarming feeling we’re going for.

The Badge System

Kawade: The biggest reason for the Badge system was that we didn’t want Mario to have any weapons. That, and not wanting to have to include a bunch of unnecessary “stats” and parameters like you find in other RPGs. Somehow it feels wrong to talk about a “Speed” stat for Mario, you know? (laughs)

On the other hand, one of the things people enjoy about RPGs is that whole progression of going to one town, buying the strongest equipment, powering up, and then moving on to the next location. We had discussions about how to include something analogous for a Mario game, and the Badge System was the result. It would be boring if players could just equip them all though, so we wanted some way to limit which ones you could use, which is why we added Badge Points. We want to make sure players feel that satisfaction of getting stronger with each level up, after all.

Sasano: The customization system for the badges is a strong point. It’s all up to the individual player what kind of Mario he wants to create… it’s quite fun and they can vary wildly.

Kawade: We wanted you to always be actively moving in this game, so it’s our hope that players will take advantage of the badge system to create some truly original Mario designs. We don’t want players to go on autopilot and just go to the town, buy an item, equip it, and move on to the next town.

Sasano: Badges are where the personality comes out. Some of our developers have even managed to clear the game with the starting 10 HP. (laughs)

Kawade: Of course they could only do that because they knew the ins and outs of the enemy algorithms. If you equip badges like Close Call or the Lucky-type badges, then you’ll enter the battle with Bowser in a danger state, and from there it’s just making good use of Power Bounce and items.

There were rejected badges too. In one of them, Mario would get into a “berserk” state where you couldn’t give him commands, but his attack power would shoot way up. For some reason though, that badge made him turn green when he was berserk. The programmer who created it was a Luigi fan, and I guess that idea was that if Mario became Luigi it could be very dangerous. (laughs)

Final Thoughts

Sasano: We truly put a lot of effort into the battle system, so I want players to have fun with it. Experiment with the badges, and enjoy figuring out all the different ways to defeat the enemies.

Kawade: Most people probably won’t notice it, but in the fight with the Goomba King, if you hit the chestnut tree with the hammer, a Goomnut will fall out and it can deal big damage to him. There’s a lot of things like that in Paper Mario—little things where if you notice them, they can make the fights a lot easier—so I hope players enjoy searching for them.

Also, I think this game shows off a lot of my personal tastes and interests, but if I were allowed to indulge myself even further… I really love the badge system so I’d like to develop that more. In any event, I’m not putting a lot of thought into a sequel yet until I’ve had a chance to hear feedback and requests from all the players.

Sasano: It’s hard to believe, but Paper Mario took 4 years to make. (laughs) I hope the next one we make can be done in 2 years or so. If we create a sequel with the same overall vibe, but a different story, I think that could be done in 2 years. Well, anyway, I guess a sequel will all come down to the market and user response.

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Paper Mario - 2000 Developer Interview

originally featured in the 11/2000 edition of Famitsu 64

—The world of Paper Mario feels like something anyone of any age can enjoy, yet it also has a great sense of style. I'm curious about where that comes from. It's also completely different from Super Mario RPG.

Sasano: Yeah, it is. Aside from the "Mario Family", most of the characters that appeared in SMRPG do not appear here. When you're tied down by a previous work, there's a tendency to feel like you have to do "more" in a sequel: to surpass the previous battle system, or make everything more complex. But I think players are getting tired of that style of game design.

—Was that the plan from the start of development?

Sasano: Yes. We decided early on that we wanted to change the world. If we focused too much on SMRPG, we would have ended up with realistic 3D stages, far removed from the "picture-book" feel we wanted. So this time, we decided to take it in a fairy-tale direction.

—How long did the development take?

Kawade: About four years, but we had intended to make it in two. We spent nearly the first year and a half just experimenting. We tried full 3D, paper-thin characters, and something in between. For the characters, we tested polygons and pre-renders. At first, we used Silicon Graphics workstations, but eventually, we settled on using Super Famicom tools to draw the characters as traditional pixel art.

—Everyone says the game is easy, but I think there are many moments where you can't let your guard down.

Kawade: First and foremost, I wanted to move away from battles that could be finished just by mashing the A button. By keeping the numerical values low I wanted to emphaszie the "weight of a single point." Also, I wanted to include puzzle-like elements. For example, the hammer is limited to attacking only the front enemy. I wanted to see if we could create puzzle-like situations with restrictions like that. Overall, there are many patterns where learning an enemy's weakness and using a bit of ingenuity can make things much easier for the player.

Sasano: It's built a bit like a strategy game. There is almost no randomness. You have to think about the order in which you attack, like taking out the enemies that provide support first, just like in a typical strategy game.

—The battle scenes feel fresh, too. The presentation is like kamishibai, but it's more than just "thin characters"... when you see it all put together, it's a very unified aesthetic. I imagine there was a lot of trial and error before settling on that style.

Kawade: Yeah, that was the hardest part.

Sasano: It often felt like we were developing the battle system and the main game as two completely separate titles, so the structure ended up being a bridge between those two elements. That's why the battles changed so much.

—What other versions of the battle system did you have?

Kawade: We had one where you fought on simple hexes. One that was more strategy-heavy. And then we tried a more orthodox battle style, too. We were very concerned with making sure it would be a pleasant, stress-free experience.

—Did you make a lot of adjustments to the difficulty, as well?

Sasano: We kept tweaking everything until the very final debugging phase. I feel like we adjusted it to the point where the battle system alone could stand as its own separate strategy game.

—Paper Mario deviates from the traditional RPG mold, feeling more like an action game in its controls and presentation. Yet, as you play, you find yourself genuinely wanting to learn more about the story. It's no mean feat to strike a balance like that. It sweeps you up in the world and its atmosphere.

Sasano: It was worth the long development time.

—It surprised me, to be honest.

Kawade: We've had a lot of feedback from people saying, "It was more fun than I expected!" Which was like, wow... I didn't realize everyone's expectations were so low. (laughs) So I just hope it has a long shelf life.

—I think it will end up being a defining title for the Nintendo 64. "This is what the N64 is all about."

Kawade: For better or worse, I reviewed every single part of Paper Mario myself, and thanks to the help of the other staff, we managed to keep the battles and the maps from feeling like disjointed pieces. I think it all came together quite well. However, because so much work ended up on my plate, progress was slow. Everyone kept telling me, "Hurry up!"

—At a glance, there isn't anything "cutting-edge" or "revolutionary" about Paper Mario. You took the traditional path, yet the level of polish is incredible. Hearing you talk today, I can tell that Kawade's oversight of all the different parts was a big factor.

Kawade: My own tastes and preferences definitely made it into the world and the gameplay systems. As for the visuals, our Art Director, Aoyama, came up with this wonderfully soft world, and my tastes ended up meshing well with that. Getting to that point was the hard part. Compared to the Super Famicom, you can do almost anything on the N64. So at first we wanted to do everything, and it just wouldn't come together. After about a year and a half, everyone finally realized, "We can't keep going like this!"

—How much time did you spend on debugging?

Sasano: We initially had very few people debugging, so it took awhile. It felt like we were just chipping away at it. Eventually, the debug team grew to nearly 50 people, and some of them could beat it very quickly.

—How fast?

Sasano: They were saying six or seven hours. I was like, "Aren't you just spending the whole time moving then…?"

—If you're not careful, you could spend that much time just in the first chapters. Hitting every tree, or watching the stars at Shooting Star Summit. I kept wanting to call people over to show them scenes. That was the first place that really moved me, Shooting Star Summit.

Kawade: Oh, really? With all those falling stars.

—And the way the sound "falls" from far away...

Kawade: The music team worked hard on that, and so did the programmers. A lot of people went and added features like that on their own, without being told. I remember at first, the stars weren't falling, but one day I looked and said, "Wait, when did you add that?!" They even bounce on the ground. The attention to detail is impressive.

—Sometimes really big ones fall. I love the sound and the way they drop, it feels great.

Kawade: That kind of "unrealistic" presentation is unique to Mario.

—Everything from the towns on down is constructed in 3D, yet you've polished into something that feels just like a living picture book. I imagine that was an immense undertaking. Our editorial team was also saying that it feels closer to the original Famicom Super Mario than to Mario 64, despite being such a narrative-driven game. Even if you're modest about it not being revolutionary, when you look at the package as a whole, it feels incredibly groundbreaking.

Kawade: Well, we put a lot of sincere work into it.

—I think that's uncommon.

Kawade: It did take a lot of time. (laughs)

—It certainly did.

Kawade: Being sincere is our forte. (laughs). I'm proud of how earnestly we went at it.

Sasano: Chipping away, bit by bit.

—I was really surprised when going to Forever Forest. A Boo appears and says, "Please come this way," and then BAM! a huge Boo pops out. That was scary! Not "realistic" scary, but the presentation made me feel that fear in a way that felt good.

Kawade: I love that kind of stuff.

—What was the most difficult part of the development, now that it's over?

Sasano: Probably the initial planning, and deciding on the overall themes and concept for the project… getting there was the biggest hurdle.

Kawade: Once things were decided, it was smooth sailing.

—Was there a lot of conflict about that?

Kawade: I think we got all the fighting out of us in that first year and a half. This isn't right! ... This isn't Mario! Eventually, we realized we needed to pull things together and decide on a single direction. But early on, we tried a lot of things. At one point the maps were all spherical and you'd move between the surface and the inside, from map to map like The Little Prince. We also had a picture-book style version where there was a physical book and Mario would flip the pages as he moved inside. In another version, we had buildings that split open like a Licca-chan dollhouse.

Sasano: Even after the development was complete, I was anxious until it was released. Would they get what we were going for...? Or were people just over this type of game.

—For kids in the early years of elementary school, this is likely their first RPG. I think it's a wonderful game for a first experience.

Sasano: When I hear my kid's friends saying they want to buy it for Christmas, it makes me happy.

—It's like a new instant classic for the N64. I think people will buy it along with the console.

Sasano: That's very gratifying.

—I made all my friends buy it! (laughs)

Sasano: I think they will get their money's worth of fun. (laughs).

—I want the generation between kids and parents to play it, too.

Kawade: Yeah, same here.

—I think middle and high schoolers might actually find it more moving than kids.

Kawade: Our primary target is elementary schoolers, but we want a wide range of people to play it, and we tried to make it enjoyable for them too.

—You succeeded! It's something that any age can enjoy, the kind of game that puts a smile on your face.

Sasano: On the flip side, people often tell us the game lacks any "bite."

—Honestly, I think it's better without it.

Kawade: The funny thing is, even when we tried to give it some edge, it didn't really land that way. (laughs)

—What about Chet Rippo? He's not all sunshine and lollipops. (laughs)

Kawade: There's Luigi's diary, too.

Sasano: There were actually many more things we wanted to do. But if we did them all, we'd never have been able to release the game. There were a lot more action commands for the battles, too.

—Oh, really?

Sasano: We had to cut the one where you rotate the 3D stick.

Kawade: That was a shame.

—There are so many characters, too.

Sasano: I'm happy that players can choose which partner to keep with them, and each one is viable to make it through the game.

Kawade: Balancing that was a nightmare.

Sasano: For Bombette, if you time her explosion right in the field, the battle starts with an explosion and you gain a turn. We thought of a lot of small details like that. At first, we wondered if we could make the transition between the field and battle seamless. We had also wanted to make everything you encountered in the field usable.

Kawade: We had to cut that due to memory. We were pushing the Nintendo 64 to its absolute limit. I think the sound quality is even beyond what the specs should allow. It got to the point where we were fighting over individual bytes. We even had to cut five characters from the font.

Sasano: Just like back in the Famicom days.

—Speaking of text, the naming for the badges is wild. It's either totally bizarre or incredibly literal. (laughs)

Kawade: Those were actually placeholder names we put in at the start, and we just ended up sticking with them until the end. One day it was like, "Oh… well, I guess we're going with these!" We named them so that their functions would be obvious. If we'd tried to give them more "proper" names, they might have actually become harder to understand.

—The way you have to swap between partners feels very deliberate, too. It always seems like you have to use a specific one just when you were starting to forget about them. The maps are really well-structured in that sense.

Kawade: We put a lot of thought into the overall layout. Likewise with the stage progression… starting with a standard stage, then moving to a desert, and so on. If you've been in a dark area, we'd follow it up with somewhere a bit more lively. We were adjusting the item placements right up until the very end, too.

—Were there any other locations you wanted to include?

Sasano: There were... if only we'd had more time.

Kawade: We were cutting it pretty close. We didn't waste anything, although some characters and party members did end up getting cut.

—What kind of characters were they?

Kawade: You know the Ninji characters? They appear in Chapter 7 in Starborn Valley. One of them was originally supposed to join your party when you first meet Merlee. It's a real shame we couldn't get him in because of time constraints.

Sasano: And the badges.

Kawade: We cut the ones that broke the game balance. There were actually about 100 of them. A lot of the data is still left inside the game.

—What kind of badges were there?

Kawade: Hmm, I was tweaking them until the very end, so offhand I don't know which ones are in there.

Sasano: Anger Power. That one isn't in.

Kawade: If you equipped Anger Power (Ikari no Power), you lost control of Mario in battle. He goes into a berserk state and goes wild attacking enemies. There was also one that made action commands succeed automatically, one that reduced HP to increase BP, and one where you'd take damage to FP. Those were cut during balance adjustments. And we were always mindful of the lower numerical values… we wanted to make sure things didn't get inflated.

—The level cap is 27, too. On a normal playthrough, you finish around level 23.

Kawade: Just a bit over level 20, yeah. I don't like the feeling of levels rising without you noticing, or someone in your party leveling up every two or three battles. I think it feels better when it happens occasionally.

—It's very satisfying this way. It makes you feel like, "Finally!"

Kawade: In the old Dragon Quest games, I'd always check how many points I needed for the next level. That feeling of anticipation is fun. I wanted to recreate that.

—Personally, I spent a lot of time calculating and planning out my badges. "When my BP goes up, I'll equip this," or "I can finally equip that badge I've been eyeing."

Kawade: Every player uses badges differently. Some people prefer attack types, others prefer utility types. Originally, the badge system came from not wanting to give Mario weapons and not wanting to increase his parameters too much. It would be weird if Mario had a "Speed" stat, right?

—By the way, how many times can you chain a Power Bounce?

Kawade: It maxes out at 101. The timing gets tighter as you go, but there's a limit to how difficult we could realistically make it.

—I noticed the difficulty spikes around the fifth jump.

Kawade: It actually depends on the enemy; the stronger they are, the harder it is to keep the chain going. If you use Charge and then follow up with a Power Bounce, you can make short work of even the bosses. Not many players seem to use Charge, but it's incredibly potent when paired with a Power Bounce.

—Do you have any favorite scenes or stages?

Sasano: For stages, Shooting Star Summit. The first time I saw it I was struck by how beautiful it was.

Kawade: The attention to detail there is great. I like Chapter 3 myself. Everything from the forest to Tubba Blubba's castle. The part where Tubba Blubba gobbles up a Boo really shows my taste. I love fairy tales and folklore, so I wanted to bring out that flavor.

—Finally, if you were to make a sequel to Paper Mario, what would you want to try?

Kawade: I loved making the badge system, so I'd want to make something that evolves that further. But next time, I want to make it in a shorter period. Four years is just too long. In the middle, it felt like running a marathon without a finish line, like I was wading through mud forever. Next time, I want it to be a bit more compact.

Sasano: I like strategy games, so I'd like to make a game with more substantial battles and a higher degree of freedom, just like a strategy game. I've talked to the programmers about it; we have so many more things we want to do, so I hope we get the chance.

Kawade: We have a lot of intense programmers. The games we make are always like that. Like Fire Emblem.

Sasano: If the Paper Mario development had finished in two years, we might have already seen a sequel by now.

—So that's the downside. (laughs)

Kawade: Next time, two years at most.

Sasano: Well, this one has four years' worth of density though.

—Two years... please make it in two years! (laughs)

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